The Great ocPortal Chat Initiative

Arbo, ocPortal does have its own chat functionality. However, as I understand it, it is limited in what it can actually do. ocPortal.com went with an external chat provider (zoho.com) so that they could provide interwebsite chat capabilities (chat from your website to other ocPortal website admins) at hopefully no cost. (If I am wrong about all that, I appologize).

Chris, I completely understand what you are saying, and hope you don't take me the wrong way. I very much love ocPortal, and simply want to see it succeed. I saw the need - a chat room where users have been popping in asking questions but no one there to greet them - and sought to fill that need so that ocPortal doesn't suffer from the seemingly lack of attention given to that part of the community.

With experiences like what we are having right now with Zodo, during the time that the ocPortal chatroom is not functioning what do you think potential clients and users of ocPortal are going to thinl? 9 out of 10 they won't blame zoho. They will blame ocPortal. They would look at it as a bad sign which could indeed drive away potential paying clients and many other users from this awesome toolkit called ocPortal.

Therefore I have to suggest the following:

1.) Disband the use of a chatroom service on ocportal.com. It is better to not have a chatroom than to have one that is not working IMO.

2.) Or look into an alternative. One potential could be making IRC chatrooms on freenode. Start with one of course and if it takes off, add to it. But I would strongly suggest that this be more community led than Chris led. You are already overworked as is lol.

I know that the chatroom isn't a money generator in itself, but it is part of the experience. A malfunctioning chatroom experience could be harmful to the bottom line, just as a chatroom experience that is not being properly attended to (by community members there to greet the potential clients).

Just food for thought…

Disband the use of a chatroom service on ocportal.com. It is better to not have a chatroom than to have one that is not working IMO.

This is the first time the chat has ever been reported to be down in the time it's been up, which is about 3 years IIRC. If it was going down a few times a month that'd be different, but I think this is a really minor blip. I'm sure it will have been down other times, but I'm not aware of it, if you report to me regularly how it is down I'd change my view .

All IT stuff goes down from time to time, unless there are multiple redundancies in everything and regular stress tests by dedicated teams. It's just a fact of life – so obviously there is a line drawn somewhere for what is acceptable reliability, and how much can be invested to achieve it.

One potential could be making IRC chatrooms on freenode.

If it can't be accessed as logged in by a single click in a web browser (with no extra software), it has failed to work as the tool people need it to be – which is something to help newbies. It needs to use the same accounts as ocPortal.com, or no accounts at all, and require no software installing/configuring by users. It needs to be very low cost (both in terms of time/money setting it up, and in terms of transactional cost per-live-user), and it has to have no ongoing maintenance or hardware requirements (not even a need for its own separate software upgrades). It needs to require no learning of its own from the user. It needs to be integratable enough so the user doesn't need to be aware of any external group.

Zoho Chat was literally the only solution I could find that would match these criteria, and even then I probably spent 1-2 days getting it set up a way I was comfortable with. Zoho is a very large organisation, and will be spending a significant amount on their infrastructure and software development.

I know that the chatroom isn't a money generator in itself, but it is part of the experience. A malfunctioning chatroom experience could be harmful to the bottom line, just as a chatroom experience that is not being properly attended to (by community members there to greet the potential clients).

I could go into some length about this, but generally speaking business users and community users have very different interests and mindsets. Only a small percentage of business customers we've had have even really been conscious that there are community features on ocPortal.com, while very few community users ever contemplate the commercial services. There is very little transference between the two – community users very rarely become business customers, and business customers very rarely start looking deeper into things that don't relate directly to their direct business needs. I'd be the first to say that people in both groups should develop an understanding and appreciation for both, and take all the factors into consideration as variables when making decisions (and my favourite clients do this), but it just doesn't happen like that in practice.

There are actually clients who we've done ocPortal sites for, sold as ocPortal sites, and if you asked them what ocPortal was, they couldn't answer . You'd be really surprised what I've learnt over the years about this kind of thing.

Chris said

This is the first time the chat has ever been reported to be down in the time it's been up, which is about 3 years IIRC. If it was going down a few times a month that'd be different, but I think this is a really minor blip. I'm sure it will have been down other times, but I'm not aware of it, if you report to me regularly how it is down I'd change my view .

All IT stuff goes down from time to time, unless there are multiple redundancies in everything and regular stress tests by dedicated teams. It's just a fact of life - so obviously there is a line drawn somewhere for what is acceptable reliability, and how much can be invested to achieve it.

I'll do that.

In all honesty, I am probably jumping the gun here. It is just worry speaking. I hate to see any reason for ocPortal to be cast in a negative light or for people to not give it a fair shake just because one small, underused portion of ocportal.com, has a bad day. I've seen people criticize for less…

So yeah, you are right. I should try to look at it more rationally. This is the first time I have seen the service fail as well. Hopefully it won't be an omen of things to come but just a minor fluke.

As to the regards of zoho versus irc, I see what you mean. On one hand icr with freedone would be assesible via web browser or many popular IM clients. It could also be easily linked into your website and is, money wise, free.  On the other hand, the time spent cost ratio of setting up such a thing and going through the changes from zoho to irc may not be worth it at all. There is no telling if it would be possible to do the same things you are doing with zoho using irc, and if it is possible (which I doubt), how much time and effort would go into doing so.

I only offered up the suggestion because a.) I've seen it used successfully by many open source projects b.) it is money wise free and c.) my jumping the gun with the zoho outage today.

And yes, unlike you I do not have the experience of company management and dealing with paying clients versus regular client/user. Thinking about it, the clients that ocProducts likely tends to probably doesn't visit the peer review sites or places like opensourcecms.com when searching for their CMS (or more likely - a company to design their website). They most likely don't care too much how the chatroom at ocPortal.com functions. All they likely care about is if you can give them the best website for the lowest cost that would keep them competitive in their area.

I only was looking at the potential of a user becoming a paying user, of doing things like what Bob does for ocPortal. But you are more than right in stating stating the low probability of even that, let alone them wanting ocProducts to make a website for them.

I still see a need here, and I hope that we can meet it. You guys have made, IMHO, the best website making platform/tool out there. I just want to see it succeed.

Speaking of which…

The chat room is functioning again.

As to the regards of zoho versus irc, I see what you mean. On one hand icr with freedone would be assesible via web browser or many popular IM clients

That's interesting. Previous systems have not been considered due to requirement on Flash or Java. Any idea on this? If it a web system working via COMET then that would be worth looking at.

About the Network

freenode.net said

You've reached freenode, a service of Peer-Directed Projects Center (PDPC). freenode provides discussion facilities for the Free and Open Source Software communities, for not-for-profit organizations and for related communities and organizations. In 1998, the network had about 200 users and less than 20 channels. Ten years down the line the network currently peaks at just over 70,000 users, freenode provides facilities to a variety of groups and organizations.

IRC Servers

Our main server rotation is chat.freenode.net. Pointers to freenode currently include irc.ghostscript.com, irc.gnu.org, irc.handhelds.org, and irc.kde.org. Please see our acknowledgements page for the generous groups and organizations who have helped us to provide this service.

If you're running Tor, access is available via our hidden service.

NOTE:The network needs servers. We are in particular need of servers on the Pacific Rim and in the Americas. If you think you might be able to help our community in this way, please take a look at the server hosting page and email us at hosting at freenode dot net. Thanks!

The following table lists freenode client servers, server names indicated in strikethrough are currently NOT linked to the production network. Apologies for any inconvenience this may cause. Servers with "Yes" in the IPv6 column listen for IPv6 connections and can be connected to via the same hostname as for IPv4. chat.freenode.net has AAAA records for those servers with IPv6 capability, so simply telling your client to connect to chat.freenode.net by IPv6 should work. Please note that due to the low number of IPv6 servers currently in service, we do not provide regional IPv6 rotations.

All freenode servers listen on ports 6665, 6666, 6667, 6697 (SSL only), 7000 (SSL only), 7070 (SSL only), 8000, 8001 and 8002. Please be aware that the below list is at no time authoritative, and as such our advice is to connect using chat.freenode.net.

There's lots more info of course.

I don't know much about whether or not it uses COMET. When I searched for that, I got lots of results about IRC channels for watching comets… obviously not the same thing lol.

What I do know is that there is a web browser client. Obviously, many IRC users tend to use a seperate IRC client. Some popular IM clients (pidgin for example) also can join IRC chat rooms. IIRC, AIM has this funtionality built in as well - but I could be wrong there.

The more obvious drawback would be the implementing and the waiting to get your node. However, if it is something you want to consider you could file to get your node and still use zoho in the meantime.

But yeah, I'll have to leave the COMET thing to the more knowledgable. I don't want to say an answer to that since I myself didn't yet fin an answer… with very minor searching of course. If I do come across an answer to that question though, I'll let you know.

I just checked, it uses qwebirc which indeed does use comet.

However it is also horribly complex, like IRC normally is .

Hosting comet apps is a real pain because PHP can't really support it without very complex configuration, that has to be maintained. So it's relying on it being hosted, but then that's no good because we'd need to update it to make it easy enough to use.

If I had real time I would spend some time on the XMPP chat addon, contributing whatever patches I needed to a XMPP server to make it run reliably with comet clients (we had huge difficulties when we tried to use this, it was extremely unreliable and had awful debugging support). IRC would be another option, but I prefer XMPP as that is an IETF standard and used for lots of things beyond just chat.

Yeah, that is the implementation drawback I was hinting at. IRC is not the most graceful of chat solutions. It is just one that I knew was free and that work™.

XMPP is indeed the ideal solution. I think we talked about that before even lol.

This of course all goes back to your original point. Money and resources to develop such a thing. In reality, without some significant sponsership or a client that really really wants it and offers up big bucks for it… there is no real gain here. I have to agree with you on that. Maybe once the world markets settle down and money is looser it can become a side project. But until then… as much as I really hate to say it… even I am beginning to agree that it just might not be the best place to point your coin.

And, just to head this off now - Bob don't you dare sponser this  right now. You need to take care of yourself. Ok?

Oh how I wish things had happened better this year. I'd be able to actually sponsor something. But noooo. damnable economy….  and wife having to take off work to wait for a transplant.

But those are matters for other discussions. For not, we should do one thing here. We should work to do with what resources we got, and be there in the chatroom to help those who need it as best we can, and if we can't direct them to paid support

wife having to take off work to wait for a transplant.

Oh, sorry to hear that .

Ah, its just life. It sucks, but yeah. Kidney transplants don't last a lifetime.

This is her second, she got it from her dad. It has lasted her eight years now, but the two close calls of rejection, the greatest being two years ago, has left it badly weakened. It is still functioning, but not at full capacity and it is not known for how long it can hold out. Therefore her doc wants her on the list, hoping to find her a new kidney before this one gives out to avoid dialysis and the like.

Over all, if it weren't for the blood tests, you'd never know that something was wrong. She seems perfectly healthy and energetic. Heck, despite my insitance that she take off of work (which she listened to) she is still attending college and running circles around me. And that is when I'm on my stimulants for my narcolepsy lol. So in all, its nothing terrible. It is a scary prospect, and one that isn't cheap… but for now things that are important are good.

mythus said

And, just to head this off now - Bob don't you dare sponser this  right now. You need to take care of yourself. Ok?

Not to worry…the bills for my co-payments have started rolling in and healthcare is most definitely not cheap in this country. Just the 31 days in a private room plus 2 days in cardio-vascular critical care were quite shocking. And the tests (and there were a lot of them).

I hope to recover by year's end and will hopefully be able to do more. On the bright side, I got my first dividends off my Apple stock in many years and I can always sell some if things get tight.

Bob

Mythus, Bob, I am so sorry to hear about your challenges. My wife has MS and is totally disabled; however, I feel so very blessed when I hear about the plight of others. Please know, my prayers will be with you, even though I have never met you.  

Thanks so much, psydoc.

Sorry to hear about your wife but, like you, I feel it is good to share so that others can appreciate how fortunate they are and to celebrate the indomitable spirit of so many who face these challenges.

Bob

Greetings,

I will be MIA for this week, due to Hurricane Isaac which looks to have me in its bull's eye. So, besides leaving the storm, I also am predicting power outages and lines down, meaning… no internet!….

So yeah, I will have to leave the manning of the chat room up to all of your very capable hands!

So keep it up guys, and I'll see you all in there as soon as I humanly can!

mythus said

Greetings,

I will be MIA for this week, due to Hurricane Isaac which looks to have me in its bull's eye. So, besides leaving the storm, I also am predicting power outages and lines down, meaning… no internet!….

So yeah, I will have to leave the manning of the chat room up to all of your very capable hands!

So keep it up guys, and I'll see you all in there as soon as I humanly can!

Stay safe, my friend!
My wife is presently in Miami and we've been exchanging skype calls all day, monitoring the storm. It looks like we may be out of it for now, but not so much for the Gulf States I'm afraid.
Hoping for the best!
Jean

mythus said

Greetings,

I will be MIA for this week, due to Hurricane Isaac which looks to have me in its bull's eye. So, besides leaving the storm, I also am predicting power outages and lines down, meaning… no internet!….

So yeah, I will have to leave the manning of the chat room up to all of your very capable hands!

So keep it up guys, and I'll see you all in there as soon as I humanly can!

Safety of family comes first. As an ex-Floridian and suffered through the 2004 season, I know all too well the dangers. Sometimes it's always best to skip the hurricane party. Hopefully you will only suffer minor property damage, if any.

Be careful and stay safe. My thoughts and prayers will be with you and your family during this rough period.

Thanks guys. We have our hurricane plan in motion. We will be fine. Our home, the stuff in it… as much as I'd hate to have any losses or damages there, they are just stuff. Things that can be replaced.

I'm glad that your wife is well Jean. Despite the weather channel's so hoping for a Flordia hit, I knew it was going to go west of FL. So I got to work on our plans for the storm early on, planning for the worst and all.

Yeah, I live on the MS Gulf Coast, in Pascagoula (right between Biloxi and Mobile AL). We aren't strangers to hurricanes here. However this is my wife's and kids first. She's from Ohio, and luckily I was in Ohio with the kids during Katrina.

Anyway, we will keep safe. Thanks again for your well wishes.

No first-hand knowledge of what is coming your way, but I wish you the very best. I'm sure your decision is a good one, and I hope the 'material' stuff survives - but they are only that - 'things'!

See you when it has all passed …

 

Watch out kids, I'm back!

Am I right in thinking Hurricane Isaac was downgraded to Rather a Lot of Rain Isaac, so luckily wasn't too bad?