Mozilla, you screwed up

and WebKit Team -- WebKit
(i.e. webkit is heavily influenced by the Chrome team nowadays)

From wikipedia:

WebKit was originally derived by Apple Inc. from the Konqueror browser's KHTML software library for use as the engine of Safari web browser, and has now been further developed by individuals from KDE, Apple Inc., Nokia, Google, Bitstream, Torch Mobile, Samsung, Igalia, and others.[2] Mac OS X, Windows, GNU/Linux, and some other Unix-like operating systems are supported by the project.[3]

and

Initial release: November 4, 1998; 13 years ago (KHTML released)
June 7, 2005; 6 years ago (WebKit open sourced)

Look, it's true, the hired firefox guys helped modify the engine, and I totally agree with you about the fact that mozilla has screwed up. Mozilla guys have made us all disappointed, the performance sucks, the js engine is even slower than ie8 in some benchmarkings, and chrome is really fast.

But the false impression about the history of chrome is not something to accept. These are two totally different things.

Well, all I was saying is these Mozilla developers helped made Google Chrome. I don't think I've said anything untrue there, maybe you're just interpreting what I said differently to what I meant. You can make something without making what you've built it with – like you have made a cake even if you didn't grind the flour. And I didn't mean to say they made Chrome in their previous capacity as Mozilla developers, I just mean the same people did it.

I think we're probably differing because you're thinking of Chrome as basically Webkit+, and I'm thinking of it as a separate project that happens to use Webkit as a component.

Interesting .

But my point isn't really about that, I'm not saying that Webkit is built by the Mozilla developers – just that Mozilla was foolish to not hold on to their best developers.

But anyways, on the point of the relationship between Chrome and Webkit – Chrome has a completely different implementation of Javascript, and a lot of other technology. I think it's kind of like comparing ocPortal and Drupal and saying they are both basically PHP+. Both projects owe a lot to PHP, but they bring a lot to the table themselves also.

I always think of Webkit as a component - it's a rendering engine that forms the basis for a lot of browsers and, to be honest, I wish it was universally adopted as the rendering engine so that browser display was more consistent. Each browser developer then brings their own 'tricks' and UI to bear on their specific Webkit-based browser implementation.

In terms of Mozilla losing talent, people should remember that Apple hired Dave Hyatt, one of the founders of the Mozilla Project as I recall, in the early 2000s to head up Apple's Webkit development, but Mozilla has been bleeding talent as the people, I think quite reasonably, question its viability in sight of the fact that its primary sponsor is also its primary competitor.

Bob

BobS said

… the fact that its primary sponsor is also its primary competitor.

Bob

… nail, head, hitting - are three words that spring to mind. Also the fact that its 'primary sponsor' has elected to withdraw some or all of its financial support?

 

Actually Google now are paying Mozilla a lot more, because they got in a private bidding war with Microsoft (Mozilla had made Bing the default search engine on some Firefox versions [I think in foreign markets, but can't remember] as a bit of a pre-negotiation warning to Google).

So actually Mozilla have done quite well after all.

So they have a stay of execution, but their market share continues to erode.

Chris Graham said

Actually Google now are paying Mozilla a lot more … So actually Mozilla have done quite well after all.

Not sure about 'lot more', but I looked it up, and got this snippet from off a BBC report …

Alan Eustace, Google's senior vice-president of search, said: "Mozilla has been a valuable partner to Google over the years and we look forward to continuing this great partnership in the years to come."The foundation said the exact terms of the deal would not be disclosed.

In its accounts for 2010, the Mozilla Foundation said it earned $121.1m (£77m) from agreements with Google, Microsoft and others. The Google agreement was thought to make up about 85% of that amount.

I suspect Google will 'terminate' this agreement when it comes up for renewal in 3 years.

It really doesn't matter if their benefactor is Google or Microsoft; in the end, Mozilla lives at the mercy of a competitor and this makes it difficult to hire and maintain the kind of talent needed for a project like this.

It is one more reason they should have adopted Webkit at some point so that they could focus on JS and UI instead of delivering a rendering engine that doesn't cause headaches for web designers and developers.

Mozilla is dying the death by 10,000 cuts and I see little way forward for them long-term. It's not like they can even attempt the monoploy argument any more.

Bob

Ah Helllllo-No. Mozilla ain't going no where.

Some of you guys must be meaning Firefox browser when using "Mozilla" as when referencing to slow.

Google has been dominating the browser category, yada, yada, yadayada~~~~~~~

IMO drop browser dev, well you can not just drop a browser and user base such as Firefox. Why point your dev funnel of goodness at a loosing or second best battle?

Web Experience and Web Operating System. With some of your top "Cloud" third party none-Google app deploy and play browser based OS's, some of the source within can be reflected behind something Mozilla. A couple I have been involved with and know are

http://ww.Jolicloud.com

Pearltrees

I have heard/read even

http://jelastic.com

Has some MZ traces within framework aspects.





On the other coin, I do agree that Mozilla has remained at an indolence level as far as being a company. Shutting down the forums and the message they had hung in it's place was total high school IMO. I just ched and they have updated with something even better:



"Mozilla has forums to enable communication among the Mozilla community. They are set up so they can be read as newsgroups, mailing lists or web groups - so it's convenient for everyone to take part.

If you think a new Mozilla discussion forum is needed, file a bug (pick 'Standard Discussion Forum') and we'll get right on it. It's not a complicated process. Please don't just go and set up a plain Google Group or similar thing, as not everyone finds it convenient to read groups on the web.

Mozilla newsgroups are sponsored by Giganews Newsgroups, to whom we are very grateful."




NOPE, at the time they had NO forums. They were pOed and had a nasty note hung on the front door about uselessness of the forums and how "tough" they were to moderate. Plus it included something else which even had me saying "Ohhh Bold, But Possibly a Bad Move". Immature I guess I would say and of course this has led into the aspects of what Chris posted.

I certainly do not use Firefox and have not know for at least 2, almost 3 years because you need the Google, but actually spend more time at Mozilla than Code.Google. I should get to CG more often, but honesty the cool and raw is at Mozilla.

These are just a few of the what Mozilla is about.


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