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Moving forward with Composr

ocPortal has been relaunched as Composr CMS, which is now in beta. ocPortal 9 will be superseded by Composr 10.

Head over to compo.sr for our new site, and to our migration roadmap. Existing ocPortal member accounts have been mirrored.


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Posted
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#26317 (In Topic #6113)
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Well-settled

Been busy of late but thought I'd let ya know how things go.

They aint. Going that is.

Generally the site is up and running and doing everything OK, far as I know, but not one single member has bothered to join, at least not "organically".

In fairness I've held advertising off for awhile so little traffic but from the few visitors I've had I'd expect one or two to have joined. Nope, nada, ziltch.

Using the live help system on my main site I've tried contacting visitors to ask why not - not an easy task but did manage to get a bit of feedback. Primary cause or reason given - "the link doesn't work".

Yes it does, it just takes a looooong time for the site to load. Sure, pages are generated quickly enough, apparantly, but the volume of data to be sent perhaps, or something, but the fact is the thing is just too slow. People click the link to the community site… and "nothing happens".

I'm already aware surfers rarely wait longer than 10 seconds and even on a good day my first visit to my own site can take 20 seconds or more before "anything happens". 11 seconds is too long, 12 seconds is an age, 13 seconds they are already moving the mouse to the back button and after 14 seconds they aint there. So they're right, "nothing happens".

I've stripped the front page of extra gumpth, all caching is on, validation is off, urls are short, running php5 or whatever. Short of changing hosts not much more I can do really. So will be leaving the site up for awhile and see what happens during my next advertising run. If still no members joining this gets deleted and I'll go with Invision/blogs/gallery or something. Certainly my decison to actually purchase is on hold.

Question - since the site does nothing at all then suddely appears in one go, is there any way of loading bits of it first so people can at least see there is actually a site there and loading? Like showing the logo and top bar first while the rest is loading or something?


D

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Posted
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#26318
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Community saint

Mine does not take more then 5 seconds to load but yes I have seen that it loads every thing all at once after those 5 seconds.
ocPortal is the only system I have ever used that does not load parts at a time.
I have looked though the code and can not figure out way it does that.
I remember another post where some one was having the same problem and it was later thought to be the fire wall.
I still like the system no matter what and will find a way to make it better.

I run http://otakuplayground.com and am hopping to make themes and other things for ocportal even though I no longer use it for otakuplayground.com I still love it and feel it could go far with the right help. It needs themes and needs people to advertise for it.
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Posted
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#26319
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Community saint

I have been running thousands of tests to fine out why it does this. One thing I found besides that its slower for those who have a firewall that filters out adult contect or just a strong busness grade firewall is when I was making a page load timer for my site is I also found the ocPortal has many sql queries which could be the result of the delay.

here are screen shots from tests I did from my home. I have a 1 mb connection.

This first screen shows the start of the page being loaded in firefox 2




This second screen shows when the page actually started loading look at the clock.
It shows 3 second delay.

If you want I could do the same test on your site, I do not have your url at the moment but I am wondering if the delay time is more or less on your site then on mine.
also I am doing this to help the ocPortal team in finding the problem.


Last edit: by amichan

I run http://otakuplayground.com and am hopping to make themes and other things for ocportal even though I no longer use it for otakuplayground.com I still love it and feel it could go far with the right help. It needs themes and needs people to advertise for it.
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Posted
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#26320
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Community saint

I located your site from another topic and here are tests from that.







I run http://otakuplayground.com and am hopping to make themes and other things for ocportal even though I no longer use it for otakuplayground.com I still love it and feel it could go far with the right help. It needs themes and needs people to advertise for it.
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Posted
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#26321
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Well-settled

Well that looks like only a couple of seconds?

Thing is I find it loads reasonably swiftly once it has loaded once and in your browser's cache, so refreshing the page doesn't take too long.

It's when someone is on my main site and clicks the link to the community site that they report it as a "dead link"

Often my own net connection is very patchy. It's meant to be 512k but it nothing like it. It's actually better downloading large files than it is webpages but effectively it's little better than dial-up at 56k

Let me test right now -

Right, my connection's not too good at this moment, 15 seconds to completely load the plain html page of the main site, though there's a fair few graphics on that page.

Now I click the link for the community bit..

For a complete and total load, 52 seconds.

Most of the page was there by 36 seconds, though continued for some time with the "items remaining" biit.

The main html page was already showing placeholders etc within 4 seconds, so you know there is something there, the link works and a surfer can wait a bit. But over 30 seconds before anything happens at all is unacceptable.

Thing is, I can see via Zonealarm that there is a lot of data being downloaded, the little green bars are jumping up and down with enthusiasm as data pours in - but not every surfer can see that or watches their modem lights.

How does one ascertain the actual size of a php page, in kilobytes?

Let me share with you some words of wisdom written some time ago but still relevant today…

No I won't as I can't find it but in a classic post someone once wrote down how to build a succesful site in 100 steps. Repeatedly throughout the whole list he mentions page loading times, literally a running joke through the list. "Keep pages under 20k, 15 is better" springs to mind, later followed by "Keep pages under 15k, 10k is better"… Later: "Keep pages under 10k… Yeah it bites but speed is everything"

This is the reason "portal" sites never really took off and Google, with nothing on the page except search, became so many people's homepage. I suspect I'm falling into the exact same trap I have so often warned others of, a fancy site with bells and whistles but unusable because it's too slow.

There is some way you can split the site from the homepage isn't there, some "welcome zone" or something?

I may try and create a welcome page that's lean and then links to the actual portal or something.

Mmm. For now I'll just try ripping everything off the front page that doesn't have to be there…



D
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Posted
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#26322
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Community saint

I know the feeling.
Mine was slow, and I had given it up for a while. The portal is a big thing, and as it offers just about every possibility the temptation to stuff the pages is hard to resist. It seemed logical ocp was responsible.

Last month I installed ocp for a group of friends. The thing was really fast. Thought it was because it was empty. Asked them if they could lend me a bit of space and a database to test a dummy of my site.
Result is amazing. Fast as hell. At least as fast as any other site.

Before you strip your site of everything interesting, maybe you should test a dummy of it on an other server.
(can let you have a bit of space on my old one if you want  :sinner: )

www.precorp.fr

Last one to leave the country, please turn off the lights.
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Posted
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#26325
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Community saint

Site Performace

We have done a fair bit of work with Cache on and are getting excellent performance. The performance is subject to a wide range of factors not least up side ISP and we are finding 512kb up and greater is quite reasonable. Server capacity is probably not as great an issue as upside bandwidth and Ram. We are using windows server 2003 and IIS and no probs. The application tool takes quite some time to get to understand due to the vast size of the application and the more you look into it the more tweaking seesm possible to improve performance.

The user side help is something we are working on currently. The problem with on line help back to OCP is the content is often to complex for a user and nor relative to a simple task.

In relation to browsers I would also comment that IE 6 and 7 (Now released) are extremly slow compared to Maxthon which is the company MS developed Explorer from. I recommend you try the browser http://www.maxthon.com/ and especially if you are a developer you should look at the tabs and ability to pre load on start up multiple tabs.

Regards :thumbs:

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Posted
Rating:
#26326
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Community saint

dateofbirth said

Well that looks like only a couple of seconds?

Thing is I find it loads reasonably swiftly once it has loaded once and in your browser's cache, so refreshing the page doesn't take too long.

It's when someone is on my main site and clicks the link to the community site that they report it as a "dead link"

Often my own net connection is very patchy. It's meant to be 512k but it nothing like it. It's actually better downloading large files than it is webpages but effectively it's little better than dial-up at 56k

Let me test right now -

Right, my connection's not too good at this moment, 15 seconds to completely load the plain html page of the main site, though there's a fair few graphics on that page.

Now I click the link for the community bit..

For a complete and total load, 52 seconds.

Most of the page was there by 36 seconds, though continued for some time with the "items remaining" biit.

The main html page was already showing placeholders etc within 4 seconds, so you know there is something there, the link works and a surfer can wait a bit. But over 30 seconds before anything happens at all is unacceptable.

Thing is, I can see via Zonealarm that there is a lot of data being downloaded, the little green bars are jumping up and down with enthusiasm as data pours in - but not every surfer can see that or watches their modem lights.

How does one ascertain the actual size of a php page, in kilobytes?

Let me share with you some words of wisdom written some time ago but still relevant today…

No I won't as I can't find it but in a classic post someone once wrote down how to build a succesful site in 100 steps. Repeatedly throughout the whole list he mentions page loading times, literally a running joke through the list. "Keep pages under 20k, 15 is better" springs to mind, later followed by "Keep pages under 15k, 10k is better"… Later: "Keep pages under 10k… Yeah it bites but speed is everything"

This is the reason "portal" sites never really took off and Google, with nothing on the page except search, became so many people's homepage. I suspect I'm falling into the exact same trap I have so often warned others of, a fancy site with bells and whistles but unusable because it's too slow.

There is some way you can split the site from the homepage isn't there, some "welcome zone" or something?

I may try and create a welcome page that's lean and then links to the actual portal or something.

Mmm. For now I'll just try ripping everything off the front page that doesn't have to be there…



D
Thats why I was using control + F5 to refresh.
The first time I went to your page was the same speed as the last.


I run http://otakuplayground.com and am hopping to make themes and other things for ocportal even though I no longer use it for otakuplayground.com I still love it and feel it could go far with the right help. It needs themes and needs people to advertise for it.
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Posted
Rating:
#26327
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Community saint

OneRingRules said

We have done a fair bit of work with Cache on and are getting excellent performance. The performance is subject to a wide range of factors not least up side ISP and we are finding 512kb up and greater is quite reasonable. Server capacity is probably not as great an issue as upside bandwidth and Ram. We are using windows server 2003 and IIS and no probs. The application tool takes quite some time to get to understand due to the vast size of the application and the more you look into it the more tweaking seesm possible to improve performance.

The user side help is something we are working on currently. The problem with on line help back to OCP is the content is often to complex for a user and nor relative to a simple task.

In relation to browsers I would also comment that IE 6 and 7 (Now released) are extremly slow compared to Maxthon which is the company MS developed Explorer from. I recommend you try the browser http://www.maxthon.com/ and especially if you are a developer you should look at the tabs and ability to pre load on start up multiple tabs.

Regards :thumbs:



IE 7 has been out a while and I used maxthon and it sucked and was just like IE 7.

I run http://otakuplayground.com and am hopping to make themes and other things for ocportal even though I no longer use it for otakuplayground.com I still love it and feel it could go far with the right help. It needs themes and needs people to advertise for it.
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Posted
Rating:
#26340
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Community saint

I saw an Ipb site that was doing this same thing so I am going to view the source of that and figure out what it has in common with ocPortal to figure out the problem.

I run http://otakuplayground.com and am hopping to make themes and other things for ocportal even though I no longer use it for otakuplayground.com I still love it and feel it could go far with the right help. It needs themes and needs people to advertise for it.
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Posted
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#26533
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Well-settled

OK, so I just tell my surfers to switch browsers?

That'll work..

By the way, am currently using firefox, well for this window anyway. I have a new PC and was able to install it OK. I don't like it though. Am also using IE7, which sadly behave like firefox, with them stupid tab things. Great novelty for 5 mins, until you lose a load because you closed the page.

I don't like either of em, but will be sticking with IE. Only downloaded this FF thing to check my site looks OK in it.

ANYWAY….. still no-one's joined, despite over 100 verified visitors. A recent conversation with an old friend and a member of my original site:

"So did you check out the new member thingy?"

"Yes, didn't know it had changed so much but I wasn't logged in?"

"No it's a new site, you need to register for it."

"I tried to but it froze or something"


I rest my case really. I've been offline for a week and now can't recall my admin password but am going to try removing "news" so the only thing on the front page will be the left-side menu…

D.
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Posted
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#26534
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Well-settled

Joy, this site has now gone screwy in firefox, with all the posts only taking up half the screen.

????
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Posted
Rating:
#26582
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Community saint

My sites actually became more popular do to ocPortal.
Granted no a days I am fighting offer spam bots who just register to spam.

I will how ever mention when I was using mkportal I lost a lot of members do to people not liking the mkportal.
There where a few reasons why people did not like it.
It was slow, to some it make the site look clutered.
But the most common comment I got when I used that was that I was told I did not make the site my self.

That comment stopped completely after switching to ocPortal.
From those same people I got comments like good job and it looks nice. I even got comments that its faster.

I run http://otakuplayground.com and am hopping to make themes and other things for ocportal even though I no longer use it for otakuplayground.com I still love it and feel it could go far with the right help. It needs themes and needs people to advertise for it.
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Posted
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#26585
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Community saint

I agree on the issue of speed and thought it was my host. I learned that on my original hosting package that I did not have Javascript enabled. Once I enabled javascript and reloaded the site it runs awesome.

My database is set up on a different server then my ocportal. I have three sites running off the same host and three databases.

My speeds are fine. My site also loads from scratch each time for me, because I don't save anything in my caches.

There is also a way for you to set up your main page with limited stuff for your members to just have the login screen. Once you have them logged in then you can have all the other zones open up for them.

Hope that helps. You may try a new install of ocportal just to see if maybe something went strange on the first time.

I run a test ocportal on my same host as the sites I use so I can mess with everything without screwing up my site. I'd be happy to show you how my stuff is set up if it helps your site run smoother.

A lot of it sounds like your connection.
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Posted
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#26603
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Well-settled

Thing is, I can open 2 windows, in 1 window I can surf around the rest of the site, including the member's area, visit the forum, read the blogs, perform a member search, all pretty speedy.

In the other window I'm still waiting for OC to load.

And if just my connection, why are other people telling me they thought it was a dead link, it's so slow?

 O_o

Regarding javascript, are you talking about enabling it on your browser or server?


D
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Posted
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#26614
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Community saint

Javascript on the server side. Not all hosts have javascript enabled or even provide it depending on the package you might be using.

I say this because it happened to me and I did not even think of it until I went back and looked through it.

Ocportal has a lot of Javascript code (yes a lot of queries too)  but overall it shouldn't be as delayed as your site is.

I use gognome.com for hosting ←- sorry not trying to advertise] They have different packages and the very first one does not offer Javascript on the server. I had to upgrade and once I did, I load pretty quick now.
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Posted
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#26616
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dateofbirth said

Am also using IE7, which sadly behave like firefox, with them stupid tab things. Great novelty for 5 mins, until you lose a load because you closed the page.

I believe Windows Internet Explorer 7 has an option to 'warn you' if you're about to close a window which has numerous open tabs. You should enabled that.

dateofbirth said

And if just my connection, why are other people telling me they thought it was a dead link, it's so slow?

It could either be your Internet connection, or your server itself being slow or unresponsive. Of the ocPortal websites I've run or visited, none had the same problem as yours. How do other intensive applications run on your server?


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Posted
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#26620
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Community saint

I'll chime in here to say that my ocPortal installation seems to load quickly both here at my home computer and at my work computer. At work, we have major firewalls (big, corporate-y company), so there is a weird 10-15 second hesitation before you can click on anything, but the site does load fully right away.

So, I think this must have something to do with your host, dateofbirth.  Have you tried reporting this problem to them and seeing if they have any suggestions? Advise them that the script seems to work fine for others, but yours seems to be loading way too slow.  

If they're a good host, they'll help you out.  If they're not, you should definitely switch.  I went through about 6 crappy hosts before I found one with good customer service, and I haven't budged since I found them.  It's worth switching to one who is responsive.  
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Posted
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#26631
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Community saint

I will add that after I upgraded my php version on my host to 5.2 the small delay I posted pics of above are gone.
I do have a problem with the skin on my forum by my forum is smf not ocf.
I am going to be installing IPB as my forum.

I run http://otakuplayground.com and am hopping to make themes and other things for ocportal even though I no longer use it for otakuplayground.com I still love it and feel it could go far with the right help. It needs themes and needs people to advertise for it.
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Posted
Rating:
#26632
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Well-settled

"I went through about 6 crappy hosts before I found one with good customer service, and I haven't budged since I found them."

That, in effect, is part of the problem. For I too have had some miserable experiences with poor hosts. My first ever site stayed with one host though, because they were so good, albeit not the cheapest. A few months ago, after being messed around a lot by other companies, I transferred this particular site to that same old and faithful host. I've had an account with them for about 10 years now, with this site hosted by them for about 6 months.

They are, by far, the best hosting company I've ever worked with. Customer service response is within the hour, 24/7/364, with daily back-ups. I even get a discount as a long-term customer and now with multiple sites.

This is the company that doesn't just restore the entire site or certain files when asked but has frequently dived into scripts, found the error and fixed it for me.

If it becomes a choice between this script or my hosting company, this script loses.

"..or your server itself being slow or unresponsive."

OCPortal itself tells me most pages are being produced in around 2 seconds. The delay doesn't seem to be in producing the page but in the time it takes for the whole thing to transfer across the net.

As such it seems to be page size, but anything else that would help I'm interested in.

I've now removed "Main_news" and "Users_online". Did that last night. Just clicked the link to my site and today it loaded in 6 seconds, which is acceptable.

When OC tells you the page loading times, is that including the database calls and everything else, ie the whole page?

My connection here is a certainly a big issue, we're talking Borneo and wires wrapped around trees in places, not to mention a total outage recently for a week. However it's the fact other people are saying it's slow that disturbs me. From my point of view every website is slow cos I has a slow connection but this one seems slower than most.

"How do other intensive applications run on your server?"

PHPFox ran very slow but with almost 100 calls to the database with every page and many other people saying the script was slow and the company themselves saying the next version will be a total rebuild, that wasn't too shocking.

My original membership site is pretty intense, a CGI dating and membership script hacked and customised to mesh together B2Evolution blogs, phpBB and a custom-made personal start page system for each member, with a live help system.

That bunch of code uses 12 different databases to get everything intergrated smoothly - but the whole thing runs about 5X faster than OCPortal.

Some of the problems may be because I'm admin, so I'm getting extra options and stuff on the page but I really don't like being told it's a "dead link".

Hopefully the stripped down front page will improve things. The forum is slow but not too bad, in fact most of the site is reasonable once it has first loaded.

Could a bunch of you be so kind as to click this, start counting and tell me how long it takes?

Fitness Community


D.
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