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Moving forward with Composr

ocPortal has been relaunched as Composr CMS, which is now in beta. ocPortal 9 will be superseded by Composr 10.

Head over to compo.sr for our new site, and to our migration roadmap. Existing ocPortal member accounts have been mirrored.


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Posted
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#64708 (In Topic #13938)
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Community saint

Background: I started using FF as my default browser after many negative comments by the staff about the sheer effrontery of M$ to refer to its many flavours of Internet Explorer as a BROWSER. Despite the fact that 90% of my aged users are too dumb or too lazy to find a browser not bundled with the operating system they buy, which is invariably some form of M$ offering.

Result: Not checking frequently enough to see how something I put up on the site displays in other browsers!

Outcome:

1. Firefox (with Firebug activated to show the HTML)



2. IE9 (yeah, I know it is a beta - but so is ocP 5.1.0)



3. Opera (mythus would have spotted this early!)



4. Google Chrome (saved the best for the last)



Any suggestions?

 :thumbs:

Take my advice. I'm not using it!

View my working ocPortal site (version 9.x.x) at Anglo-Indian Portal
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Posted
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#64711
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Well-settled

Yes! forget that you saw your site with other browsers other than firefox, lol really that is gonna drive you nuts.

gnaw gnaw really I couldn't resit typing this.  :lol:
sorry please wait until someone can get you a proper response.
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Posted
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#64716
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Community saint

Hehehe actually I haven't fired up Opera in a while. I have been using rekonq as of late (kde/linux webkit browser).

I haven't noticed anything outlandish on my site so………. I'ma gonna visit your site to see if I see that in this browser!

Legends of Nor'Ova: A site powered by ocPortal; home of the Legends of Nor'Ova tabletop RPG wiki and community.

Like ocPortal? Want to thank Chris and gang somehow? Then help out in the chat room! It really needs your help! Just open it in a tab everytime you open your web browser, and when you hear a "ding", check it out!

"Those who want help should first be willing to give help."
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Posted
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#64717
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Community saint

Greetings Fletch,

It looks good on my end :P




Legends of Nor'Ova: A site powered by ocPortal; home of the Legends of Nor'Ova tabletop RPG wiki and community.

Like ocPortal? Want to thank Chris and gang somehow? Then help out in the chat room! It really needs your help! Just open it in a tab everytime you open your web browser, and when you hear a "ding", check it out!

"Those who want help should first be willing to give help."
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Posted
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#64721
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Community saint

mythus said

Greetings Fletch,

It looks good on my end :P

Darn!

Wonder what is crippling it on my setup?

 O_o

Take my advice. I'm not using it!

View my working ocPortal site (version 9.x.x) at Anglo-Indian Portal
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Posted
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#64722
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Tried it myself. Ok on Firefox and Opera.

The video player script seems to be triggering bugs in Chrome and IE9. Chrome is getting confused because it's going through all possible video replacements and adding HTML tags to do it and the change in tag structure is confusing it's sense of progression.
IE9's problem is even weirder, it seems as tags are added by the player in IE9 it completely corrupts the HTML.


Become a fan of ocPortal on Facebook or add me as a friend. Add me on on Twitter.
Was I helpful?
  • If not, please let us know how we can do better (please try and propose any bigger ideas in such a way that they are fundable and scalable).
  • If so, please let others know about ocPortal whenever you see the opportunity.
  • If my reply is too Vulcan or expressed too much in business-strategy terms, and not particularly personal, I apologise. As a company & project maintainer, time is very limited to me, so usually when I write a reply I try and make it generic advice to all readers. I'm also naturally a joined-up thinker, so I always express my thoughts in combined business and technical terms. I recognise not everyone likes that, don't let my Vulcan-thinking stop you enjoying ocPortal on fun personal projects.
  • If my response can inspire a community tutorial, that's a great way of giving back to the project as a user.
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Posted
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#64725
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Community saint

Chris Graham said

Tried it myself. Ok on Firefox and Opera.

OK on Windows/Firefox but NOT on Windows/Opera 10.6.

I am guessing that you guys are using OSX (that's you, Chris) and Linux (mythus) to drive your version of Opera, but I've now checked on three different Windows boxes and it breaks in exactly the same places as I submitted in my original post.

From where I am sitting, I can't help feeling that it is incumbent on ocPortal to fix the video script so that it works on ALL browsers for ALL operating systems, despite what you, the authors, think about the scripting behind the different flavour of browsers.

If it can't be fixed it really is a deal-breaker.




Take my advice. I'm not using it!

View my working ocPortal site (version 9.x.x) at Anglo-Indian Portal
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Posted
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#64729
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It's not our video script ;). I think you installed it separately.


Become a fan of ocPortal on Facebook or add me as a friend. Add me on on Twitter.
Was I helpful?
  • If not, please let us know how we can do better (please try and propose any bigger ideas in such a way that they are fundable and scalable).
  • If so, please let others know about ocPortal whenever you see the opportunity.
  • If my reply is too Vulcan or expressed too much in business-strategy terms, and not particularly personal, I apologise. As a company & project maintainer, time is very limited to me, so usually when I write a reply I try and make it generic advice to all readers. I'm also naturally a joined-up thinker, so I always express my thoughts in combined business and technical terms. I recognise not everyone likes that, don't let my Vulcan-thinking stop you enjoying ocPortal on fun personal projects.
  • If my response can inspire a community tutorial, that's a great way of giving back to the project as a user.
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Posted
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#64730
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Community saint

Violative said

Yes! forget that you saw your site with other browsers other than firefox, lol really that is gonna drive you nuts.
Actually, I quite agree with Violative view here!

About 7 years ago, the browser wars were over. Internet Explorer had become the de facto standard, and for a while, there were very few compatibility issues in web page design.

Today's browser wars make the late 90's look like a minor skirmish. In addition to Firefox and IE, we've got multi-platform versions of Safari, Opera, Chrome, and a wealth of mobile phone browsers. In addition, there are multiple versions of all these browsers, many of which have different rendering idiosyncrasies.

I could go on a big rant here blaming everybody and their mothers in law and especially the parasite software reviewers neglecting to stress those incompatibilities as a real good reason not to use specific browsers, but that would just increase my blood pressure. Basically, the Internet is ruled by greed and the stock market and the browser wars are just a reflection of this. Don't expect real efforts at compatibility and the search for one standard. Things will get a whole lot uglier as some players fall off the charts, ruined and discarded, just to be replaced by new ones.

Shouldn't we just all scramble to fix our sites for the umpteen times to please a group of fanatic users because it favors a new browser or a new version of an existing one, or simply keep it up to date for our chosen platforms?

In my view, the best way to stop this nonsense is for the designers/developers to make a stand as to the browser(s) which will fit the bill and never claim cross-platform compatibility just to please Wall Street and everyone else.

I've started to add a line on my websites suggesting the browser which will render them best. Browsers are free, quick to install and why not get the best one associated to a favorite site?;)
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Posted
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#64745
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Community saint

Greetings,

Jean, there is a quite abit of truth in your post, but lets not forget that this time it isn't just browser specific but browser+O/S. For example, if you decide to make your website standard for IE, and suggest IE as the browser, then I for one would be left out because I run an only linux box (and really don't want to run IE through WINE just for a site lol).

On the other hand, lets say you pick firefox. Believe it or not, firefox works differently on linux than it does on windows. True for the most part the differences are subtle at best, but they exist. For example, you can easily enjoy the msn site on firefox on windows, but not quite the case on firefox on linux. Windows has a set of API's that have to be added to firefox native code that just don't exist under linux, and firefox has to be taylored to meet windows inner opperating demands. So you could say that your website renders best with firefox, yet I could view it with firefox under linux and find that it doesn't render so well, but renders better under Ephiany, for example.

And lets not even get started about how depending upon the linux distro you are running you might not have the latest firefox!

Opera is a similar case. Opera functions as it has using its own tool kit with windows API for years. Yet the latest Opera under linux has special toolkits for looking native with KDE/qt or GNOME/gtk. Do these affect how it renders? Maybe…. maybe not.

So what is the solution here? Tell everyone to use one browser, despite whether or not your site renders the same for them as it does for you? Not even considering that they may have reasons not to run something like firefox, like say having a very old computer that they have kept alive with ICEWM linux and thus can only run the lightest weight browser, or they simply can't stand the overal slugginess of firefox? That, my friend, is not the answer. That would be one step away from me saying that everyone who views this web site needs to have a fairly modern PC, running Arch Linux, and using rekonq as their browser.

No, I think what is needed though is to simply ensure that our websites are supported by at least the most popular rendering engine, which I am thinking at this time may be webkit, and that it should render fine with maybe some minor glitches, for most everyone else. When I check out to see if my website works well, I use the browser of my choice (right now rekonq), and konqueror which uses KHTML, the granddaddy of webkit. If it renders well in konqueror, I am almost certain it will render well in any other browser, except maybe certain versions of IE who simply refuse web standards.

I for one am glad for the choice of a web browser. But I do agree that they need to render websites equally.

Fletch, so you know I didn't view your website in Opera. I viewed it in rekonq, which uses webkit (like chrome does).

Legends of Nor'Ova: A site powered by ocPortal; home of the Legends of Nor'Ova tabletop RPG wiki and community.

Like ocPortal? Want to thank Chris and gang somehow? Then help out in the chat room! It really needs your help! Just open it in a tab everytime you open your web browser, and when you hear a "ding", check it out!

"Those who want help should first be willing to give help."
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Posted
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#64752
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Community saint

I agree with you, mythus, in fact my comments were a bit insensitive. They are probably mirrored by my sense of frustration at a world where standardization is an illusion at best. In my defense, I did mention updating "our chosen platforms" which implies more than one. Yes indeed, we should "ensure that our websites are supported by at least the most popular rendering engine", but here lays the problem: What is popular for some may not be for others inhabiting different corners of the planet influenced by dissimilar sets of references.

Unfortunately, most websites out there are simply a modern way of presenting a "business card", an advertising billboard, or just a pile of spam mail under one roof with the only object of catching someone off-guard to buy something. Evidently, the designers of these will do their best to remain in the main stream and cross-platform designs accordingly for an ever increasing price that the consumer will eventually have to pay.

Then, there are works of art like your site, Fletch's, friendly's and many others, which do not necessarily have anything to sell, but ideas to share. In this context, I do not want to see them, nor mines with even minor glitches in the same way a painter would not accept that one of his paintings be presented in an art gallery without the proper lighting and environment. I would prefer to know under which platform it is best to view it and decide if I should adapt my system to get all the visual polish offered by the website.

I guess that my long evolution as an avid software "gamer" has influenced my point of view. You see, a true gamer will take any steps necessary to play the game at its best, if it means changing the video card, adding more RAM, or simply get a new computer, the ultimate goal is to experience it the way it was meant to be played. I believe that websites must conjure the same enthusiasm and get members to adapt, not the other way around, because it will kill the art having to cross-platform it beyond the reasonable. My concept is certainly not a viable one for most sites, but this is the kind of stand I was talking about.;)
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Posted
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#64754
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Fascinating discussion :).


Become a fan of ocPortal on Facebook or add me as a friend. Add me on on Twitter.
Was I helpful?
  • If not, please let us know how we can do better (please try and propose any bigger ideas in such a way that they are fundable and scalable).
  • If so, please let others know about ocPortal whenever you see the opportunity.
  • If my reply is too Vulcan or expressed too much in business-strategy terms, and not particularly personal, I apologise. As a company & project maintainer, time is very limited to me, so usually when I write a reply I try and make it generic advice to all readers. I'm also naturally a joined-up thinker, so I always express my thoughts in combined business and technical terms. I recognise not everyone likes that, don't let my Vulcan-thinking stop you enjoying ocPortal on fun personal projects.
  • If my response can inspire a community tutorial, that's a great way of giving back to the project as a user.
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Posted
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#64756
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Well-settled

Jean said

I guess that my long evolution as an avid software "gamer" has influenced my point of view. You see, a true gamer will take any steps necessary to play the game at its best, if it means changing the video card, adding more RAM, or simply get a new computer, the ultimate goal is to experience it the way it was meant to be played. I believe that websites must conjure the same enthusiasm and get members to adapt, not the other way around, because it will kill the art having to cross-platform it beyond the reasonable. My concept is certainly not a viable one for most sites, but this is the kind of stand I was talking about.;)
Tactfully you are correct here Jean enthusiasm and passion on the part of the website admin and in my case as a gamer, as the game server founder and administrator develops devotees to whatever "platform" or anything I wish to implement, but I am a rare few that can do this.
Because my members have a chance to meet and hear my voice in game. Meeting random people is my passion, believe it or not a am a people person just need to know how to deal with me.

Take for an example the last person that created my phpbb3 theme became upset that I added a detection for any browser other than IE and if the user was viewing my site it would advised them of the fact the this site is best viewed with IE 7+. This became a soar point in our relationship, me agreeing that his template themes should be truly cross browser consistent.

I have just rested with the knowledge this cross browser consistency can be done but at a very time consuming ordeal with different .css files for just about every browser. I rest in peace now that as long as I can enjoy my site with my chosen browser, that is fine with me.
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Posted
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#64776
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Community saint

Greetings,

I do enjoy a good, mature, and tactful debate, don't you?

Jean you lay out with such great passion your point of view, and it is a very understandable point of view, one that if you read my thoughts carefully is not too far removed from my own. There are only two slight differences propelling our point of views here that make all the difference. That being the type of 'gamer' that you are ;).

You see, there are two main types of gamers IMO. The visual type who is after the WOW! factor and the more casual type who is more intereseted in playability, fun factor, and (in my case) story factor. While there are titles that these two types can agree upon, there are also titles that these two types do not equally enjoy. The first type would much rather play the latest and greatest visually stunning game even if its story is a rehashed and repeated story and its controls are a little clumsy whileas the second type would pick up an old NES title over that latest and greatest game any day. The first type would want the PS3 version while the second type may enjoy the Wii version better, despite the cut in graphic capabilities just because its control style is more fun to that person.

That philosophy, that mind set is not too different in the world of browsers and what not. Some enjoy firefox because it has all these hundreds of extras that you can add to it. Some enjoy IE because it's already their, and MS has done what it could to make it the more visually attractive browser. Then there are some who like browsers like Chrome because of its simplicity and speed.

Do you recall how the playstation machine was the king of the world so to speak, and the same was assumed to be teh fate of the PS3? How Nintendo was laughed at for their concept of the Wii, because it was so underpowered graphically? Yet the Wii far outsold the PS3 so the PS3 eventually had to adapt to add on a capability very similar to the Wii? Even XBOX took a similar route, making a device that gave a similar playing style to the Wii. Why? Because those two companies realized that the larger group of consumers were more interested in having fun playing than being visually WOW'ed and stunned.

Now lets take a look at browsers. Because of it being instaled with every Windows system for many of its versions of the OS, IE has held the larger pie of the internet marketshare for quite some time. So you could be easily tempted to just make sure that your website renders well in IE right? However with a more concentrated effort by brower makers to give their product exposure, and with laws in some ares of the world (like Europe where Windows doesn't come shipped with IE anymore but instead a tool that lets you pick a browser amongst several to get installed as the main browser for the system), IE's marketshare has been shrinking.

So then, maybe instead of targetting IE to get your website looking and functioning its best for the most amount of people you might decide to instead focus on the Trident rendering engine that IE uses. That would allow your site to work best on a larger amount of browsers, such as the Maxthon, the Avant browser, and so on. The Trident rendering engine is by default the largest used rendering engine in the world… but guess what, that too is chaning.

So if you want your website to be functionally and graphically the best who do you target? Do you target firefox due to its current popularity? Firefox is supported on so many OS'es after all. Maybe the Gecko rendering engine that it uses, which used to be picked up and used by anyone who wanted to make a web browser? Maybe but both are starting to see a decline to their growth as well.

With webkit browsers, it is not a wise idea to choose just one because there are so many, and each one has such a small portion of the pie of the marketshare, so to speak. So instead, you would and should want to target the rendering engine as a whole. Webkit, ever since Safari went cross platform, has become today's hot item. It is extremely fast, and extremely web standards complient, which is surprising in an age when even Firefox is drifting away from such heavy compliancy. Webkit is derived from the KHTML engine which was choosen as its base because of its very clean code adn high compliancy versus the other choice at the time, Gecko, which was not a clean code and was (and is) heavy. There are so many browsers for Webkit that it isn't even funny, and the benifit of tailoring your website to webkit browsers is that it would then render well on most smart phones as well. A site that renders well in webkit, should render well in gecko based browsers as well, will render well in the presto based browser (Opera), but may not render as well in IE and other trident based browsers. However over all, webkit still has one of the lower shares of the marketshare, ahead of Opera however.

My point is this: I remember the browser wars of the 90's, and I for one do not want to go back to those days, where you had icons saying that this site is viewed best in Netscape or IE, and that was litteral becaus ethe site really wouldn't function at all in the other browser. In those days I litterally had to use two browsers just the enjoy the web. However I understand very well the angst felt at having to include so many css files and spend so much time ensuring that your website is cross platform, so why not settle on a compromise then? Why not make sure it at least works for everyone, but instead of targeting one browser alone that it is viewed the best in, you target a rendering engine? That way for those who have a browser that they like to use and don't want to switch browsers can enjoy your site just fine, those that have a browser in the rendering engine you target will enjoy it as you have designed it, but no one would be left out of enjoying your site, which could happen if you choose to only build your site for one web browser.

In otherwords, instead of making your site not work on other browsers but one well, make your site work on a larger share of browsers well, and for all others at least well enough? No one likes to see their masterpiece not function as designed for someone else, but I rather at least letting everyone have access to the site despite the minor glitches it may show for the browser or rendering engine I didn't focus on, rather than only making sure it works well for my favorite browser and leaving all others out in the cold :P.

Hehehe, I do hope, at the least, that you can understand my long, confusing train of thought.

Legends of Nor'Ova: A site powered by ocPortal; home of the Legends of Nor'Ova tabletop RPG wiki and community.

Like ocPortal? Want to thank Chris and gang somehow? Then help out in the chat room! It really needs your help! Just open it in a tab everytime you open your web browser, and when you hear a "ding", check it out!

"Those who want help should first be willing to give help."
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Posted
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#64816
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Community saint

Chris Graham said

Fascinating discussion :).

Indeed! Getting a lot of useful info out of this.

Eric DeMars . com
My electronic portfolio and personal site. Uses ocPortal!
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Posted
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#64821
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Community saint

Chris Graham said

It's not our video script ;). I think you installed it separately.

Yes I did install a script (JS) that allowed me to present a video with a still-image representation to make it eye-candy for my users.

How dumb of me to expect it to have continued to work, despite having worked in the past on various browsers and various software engines!

I've followed the various points of view, and it becomes patently clear that this software really is aimed at the 'more informed' element of the CMS market, as opposed to the vast army of users who would like to be able to use a CMS, but who don't want to have to be jumping through hoops.

I find myself somewhere in the middle as far as being a 'user' is concerned. I have some ability to appreciate the 'power' of the CMS, but not enough knowledge to manipulate it the way the developers have envisaged it should be.

If I have to spend more time working out 'how' to do something rather than spending that time in offering an interesting website for my users, I consider it to be time wasted. And at my age, I don't have that time to waste!

Back to the original 'complaint'. I have returned to displaying my vids using the age-old <object> and <embed> routine that serves up the usual bland black viewing port when a video is placed on the site. There is no conflict with pre-installed scripts, but it isn't what I wanted.

Amazingly I can achieve my objectives in Wordpress and even Blogger. No conflict in display on any browser.

So, I really have to reassess what I want to do, and what I want to use to do it with.

Take my advice. I'm not using it!

View my working ocPortal site (version 9.x.x) at Anglo-Indian Portal
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Posted
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#64822
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There really is nothing we can do with regard how a third party script operates with web browsers. It's nothing to do with ocPortal at all, that just happens to where it's been slotted. I don't know whether the context of the HTML is making a difference or not, but it's not something we could foresee.


Become a fan of ocPortal on Facebook or add me as a friend. Add me on on Twitter.
Was I helpful?
  • If not, please let us know how we can do better (please try and propose any bigger ideas in such a way that they are fundable and scalable).
  • If so, please let others know about ocPortal whenever you see the opportunity.
  • If my reply is too Vulcan or expressed too much in business-strategy terms, and not particularly personal, I apologise. As a company & project maintainer, time is very limited to me, so usually when I write a reply I try and make it generic advice to all readers. I'm also naturally a joined-up thinker, so I always express my thoughts in combined business and technical terms. I recognise not everyone likes that, don't let my Vulcan-thinking stop you enjoying ocPortal on fun personal projects.
  • If my response can inspire a community tutorial, that's a great way of giving back to the project as a user.
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