Book structure/chapters/content

Fletch said

I think we're all singing from the same hymn sheet - although it sometimes appears we're on different hymn's  

Duck's reference to a 'useless' demo site is precisely my point - just made differently!

I do have a possible solution, but I need to work on it to present it visually. Please give me some time.

 

I look forward to seeing your suggestion.

Bob

sholzy said

This has been my point of teaching the reader how to create and use their own test setup. Let them build up their own test site in their own sandbox. Use the companion site for a visual reference for how a default install should look like with all blocks/addons included.

I am interested in seeing what Fletch proposes but I do like this idea. I was planning on having the installation section mention about creating a test site but I failed to put it in the outline. I think we should be more forceful with this suggestion as it solves a lot of issues and prepares the user for testing and upgrading in the future. I'll add creating a test site to the installation section.

This is an A+ suggestion in my book, sholzy.   

Bob

sholzy said

… Let them build up their own test site in their own sandbox …

I've warmed to the idea, despite my initial reluctance to ask a prospective 'new' user (let's forget the 'newbie' reference for a bit) to build TWO sites. However, properly explained, the "follow my explanation" approach will 'hand-hold' the user through the various changes discussed in the PDF/Book, culminating in a full-blown test site designed for them, by us, which they can ultimately use to do their own experimentation.

The other advantage, of course, is that they do it at their own speed.

BobS said

I am interested in seeing what Fletch proposes but I do like this idea.

I can still show an example of what I had in mind, which goes along the lines of "at the end of this chapter you will …", and although it suggests a bit of a text-book approach, it would avoid confusion when viewing a site in the process of metamorphosis from 'plain-vanilla install' to 'completed journey' pausing at each milestone!

Still considering submitting this idea, but I think sholzy has just taken the wind out of my sails …!!

 

Fletch said

sholzy said

… Let them build up their own test site in their own sandbox …

I've warmed to the idea, despite my initial reluctance to ask a prospective 'new' user (let's forget the 'newbie' reference for a bit) to build TWO sites. However, properly explained, the "follow my explanation" approach will 'hand-hold' the user through the various changes discussed in the PDF/Book, culminating in a full-blown test site designed for them, by us, which they can ultimately use to do their own experimentation.

The other advantage, of course, is that they do it at their own speed.

BobS said

I am interested in seeing what Fletch proposes but I do like this idea.

I can still show an example of what I had in mind, which goes along the lines of "at the end of this chapter you will …", and although it suggests a bit of a text-book approach, it would avoid confusion when viewing a site in the process of metamorphosis from 'plain-vanilla install' to 'completed journey' pausing at each milestone!

Still considering submitting this idea, but I think sholzy has just taken the wind out of my sails …!!

 

This idea isn't new. It was started almost 2 weeks ago by Duck and then me a few days later. Give the reader the tools he needs to do the job the correct way right from the start.

sholzy said

Fletch said

sholzy said

… Let them build up their own test site in their own sandbox …

I've warmed to the idea, despite my initial reluctance to ask a prospective 'new' user (let's forget the 'newbie' reference for a bit) to build TWO sites. However, properly explained, the "follow my explanation" approach will 'hand-hold' the user through the various changes discussed in the PDF/Book, culminating in a full-blown test site designed for them, by us, which they can ultimately use to do their own experimentation.

The other advantage, of course, is that they do it at their own speed.

BobS said

I am interested in seeing what Fletch proposes but I do like this idea.

I can still show an example of what I had in mind, which goes along the lines of "at the end of this chapter you will …", and although it suggests a bit of a text-book approach, it would avoid confusion when viewing a site in the process of metamorphosis from 'plain-vanilla install' to 'completed journey' pausing at each milestone!

Still considering submitting this idea, but I think sholzy has just taken the wind out of my sails …!!

 

This idea isn't new. It was started almost 2 weeks ago by Duck and then me a few days later. Give the reader the tools he needs to do the job the correct way right from the start.

I know the idea is not new, but, for me, it just got  overshadowed by other considerations, especially as I was content to put the companion site on the back burner.

I'm pleased that you were persistent and that we now will have a stronger product as a result.

Bob

One thing I want to do is to provide any copy and images used as downloadable packages for each lesson. This will help to assure that each reader ends up creating that exact duplicate of our demo site.

We will need to make certain that any sources we use are open-source or that we get permission to use them.

Bob

BobS said

(in reply to sholzy) … I'm pleased that you were persistent and that we now will have a stronger product as a result.

Yeah, me too!

I started to 'build' the alternative I had in mind, but it occurred to me that I already have a 'working' example:

• here is the link to a default installation
• here is the link to the same installation after several changes

Same installation, the difference being that the second link calls up a new ZONE (w3c). Nothing in the original installation has changed. The 'zone' carries all of the original installation XHTML & CSS, but the display has been changed on the page itself!

Does that convey my thinking sufficiently?

 

@Bob

I left myself a 'knot-in-my-handkerchief' in another post, so best I get it out here while I still remember why I tied the knot in the first place …!!

In the 'Troubleshooting' section of each chapter, please remind the prospective user that, when things go TU (and they will), that one of the things they should check is that they haven't got 'overrides' in their '_custom' folders that are causing an issue.

Especially with upgrades …!!

 

---

P.S. I just realised that you 'might' get to read this in a hospital bed. If that is the case, please forgive my insensitivity, and I will only expect a response when you've been discharged without any further complications. And don't dismiss that wheelchair - apparently it's for 'their' protection!

 

Duck said

…The companion sites primary purpose is to be a tool for the writers to implement the tasks needed in order to provide their subject matter. I think any purpose of using the site as a reference for readers to  follow up with is a secondary concern… Based on the fact that the system is to be locked when completed it is only a reference of physical appearance (and in my eyes pretty useless over-all except to a very limited minority of users that need that 3 dimensional visual reference that others argued for).

(Seems right and I agree with Duck at first consideration, but after more reflection, I think it is the opposite. Read further down)
 

Duck said

Since the site topic is Cars let's use that as an example.
Suppose I am teaching you how to build a Car from the ground up. How useful is it to see the completed car instead of all the parts laid out in a logical fashion when I have just taught you and showed you several detailed photo's and diagrams of the car building process through every stage including the final product? I mean if after teaching you everything you need to know to build the car how badly do you really need to see the live version of the car that you have to stand back from and can't even open the doors or hood to look inside it? Is it going to make that much of a difference to you to stand back (from a distance) and look at the car to see that it matches the final photo I gave you?

This is where I totally disagree with Duck's observation on the importance of an example website.

Before starting with such an elaborate project I would want to see the final product in great details, and after completion I would still want to compare my achievement with the original to see where I may have come short, or possibly even did better. So yes in this light, a reference sight is very important to showcase ocPortal's potential to neophytes.

My experience as a teacher in this new world where catchy sell-words like simple; intuitive; effortless;  trouble-free, are over used and more often miss-used, I've noticed that most students will start any project with a negative outlook. "Show me...prove to me it is worth my time" they seem to cry-out.  An overwhelming number have lazy-minds, thinking that efforts are tedious and beyond their worth. If you do not hold their curiosity in the first wave, it is often too late as their short attention span will meander elsewhere.
 
A BOOK! WOW!  Who reads today beyond twitter and some blog headlines? (I'm being sarcastic, but surely this is a concerning pattern of a state of mind that cannot be overlooked while working on such a project.)

To have an impact, the plan must offer clear insights into ocPortal, starting with a strong visual approach. Hook them with the look and guide them with short, fail proof tutorials, I'd say.

I think that the First 6 chapters of the "BOOK"  as elaborated by Bobs can be integrated within the example website and its follow-up extensions offered in other formats afterwards. The website peeks the curiosity, the chapters (map) bring the visitors to the how's and why's of the ocportal methodology for creating a viable presence on the web. The forums catch the comments and questions and the site adjusts and evolve around the concept.

Sorry for the lateness of my comments, I've just come back from a limited to none Internet vacation.

Jean
  
 

You have point here Jean. I think also that if the beginning webmaster not seeing a final product or what it could be, they will go on to search further.


Harry

Just to clarify Jean I am not objecting to a site that represents the book just a locked down static site with no admin access. As I say it is kinda like looking at the finished Car from a distance but not really useful for examining on how it was built. I think a picture of the finished car is pretty much as good as the distance view as far as I am concerned but that's me.

Duck said

Just to clarify Jean I am not objecting to a site that represents the book just a locked down static site with no admin access. As I say it is kinda like looking at the finished Car from a distance but not really useful for examining on how it was built. I think a picture of the finished car is pretty much as good as the distance view as far as I am concerned but that's me.

I agree, but I think it would be difficult providing admin access to multiple people at the same time without problems arising.

How many concurrent users are able to log in as Admin? Can it be done without problems arising internally (like db corruption)? There may not even be enough users on at one time for it to even be a problem.

I just think if you're making changes to the site and someone else logs in and starts doing the same thing, things could turn ugly quickly. This is why I believe it is better to teach the reader to make a test site so he/she can experiment all he/she wants without anyone else creating problems.

I appreciate your clarification Duck and agree with you about the low relevance of a static companion website which cannot be scrutinized and tested by potential designers for lack of admin rights. I also concur with sholzy about the difficulty of "providing admin access to multiple people at the same time without problems arising".

My proposed solution is to use the companion website, yes as a static kind of image representation of the final result, but through the power of the ocPortal engine it can go much deeper in providing what sholzy refers to as "teaching the reader how to create and use their own test setup. Let them build up their own test site in their own sandbox. Use the companion site for a visual reference for how a default install should look like with all blocks/addons included". I believe that these references can easily be presented as step by step tutorials using "Zones"  which can accommodate multiple "themes". For instance, the initial setup tutorial is presented with the 'default theme' within its own zone. Zones can be created to give accurate representation for each level of instructions; immersing the reader with the correct environment during the processes.  This is not like a true "sandbox", but it is the next best thing for someone interested in recreating his own.

This approach would give each author the freedom to create an instructional theme (chapters) in his own computer and export it as a theme to be uploaded as an addon and attributed a zone on the official companion site.  The Companion site's webmaster task to assemble the chapters is made easier as he   juggle zone modules accompanied by introductions and linked through a book like index or menu. Corrections and updates by the authors are made easier by simply issuing a revised theme.

Jean said

Zones can be created to give accurate representation for each level of instructions …

I'll take that as 'confirmation' of an idea I've put forward a couple of times before, e.g.

• View topic: What hosting environment do you use for ocPortal - ocPortal.com
• View topic: Should we create a companion site that demonstrates the outcome of our site building? - ocPortal.com
• View topic: Book structure/chapters/content - ocPortal.com

However, from the response to those 'suggestions' it appears that other members either don't get it, or feel it is too complicated.

Perhaps a further discussion on the value of different presentations (ZONES), based on different actions taken in the Book/PDF could be of value if we are still considering a site to be referred to?

 

Fletch said

Jean said

Zones can be created to give accurate representation for each level of instructions …

I'll take that as 'confirmation' of an idea I've put forward a couple of times before, e.g.
View topic: Should we create a companion site that demonstrates the outcome of our site building? - ocPortal.comView topic: Book structure/chapters/content - ocPortal.com
However, from the response to those 'suggestions' it appears that other members either don't get it, or feel it is too complicated.

Perhaps a further discussion on the value of different presentations (ZONES), based on different actions taken in the Book/PDF could be of value if we are still considering a site to be referred to?

 

​

WOW! YES! It is a definite confirmation, now that I've read the links you suggested.  I did not have a chance to read much of what was posted last month, otherwise I would have quoted you since we happen to be on the same frame of mind about zones (and many other things).  Maybe because we have been actively involved in creating multiple themes from one basic site do we understand its potential in this project.  I've been using zones on my tutoring website ever since I've discovered it could be used as sites within sites.

Jean

I have done this several days ago in the new digiflash site.. I use it as club zone. with links direct to to central forums of every club. So I think the power of  zones is now not really clear to many.

Only Because you haven't been here for all the conversations Jean am I going to provide one last argument on this topic and then I rest my case:

A static site that has no interaction is nothing more than a duplicate picture of what you have already been provided. People are arguing that some people need a 3d view of things to understand it but a static non-interactive page is NOT 3d. Everything on your monitor is nothing but a 2D image!

Compare these examples:



Now click the link to Digiflash site and pretend you can't do anything there (no clicking links no commenting etc)

http://digiflash.nl/

What is the difference I ask? What really was the point to it I ask?

Next you talk about multiple Zones depicting Static images of various stages of development but again this seems like a waste of resources to me when there is already difficulty getting the volunteers to write chapters where you going to get the volunteers to set all these up and maintain them? For the 1 in 1000 person that just may find some use to seeing a duplicate picture of something they have already seen?

I think that since a companion site is going to be gone to the trouble of building why not actually make it live? No Admin access will be given but site interactivity will be there. People can see it in operation. Watch how it has grown and evolved over time since it's development from the book. Revenue from Ads etc can be flowed into ocPortals coffers to help with development costs and perhaps even sold  after a year or 2 for a considerable sum. But at least in the meantime people are looking at a REAL SITE and not a bunch of 2D images that are exact duplicates of the 2D images they have already seen.

To add one final point to that last argument:

If you are teaching the people to build the site on their test box and they are following along then they will have their own copy of the site to look at and won't need another copy on the web to look at anyway! Now you'll have just increased the redundancy and uselessness of the live (static locked) site as well.

Hi guys,
Just my $28 worth (Oz inflation) as I AM your target audience:
I used to design industrial training programs in the "Emerging World" and some were lulus:
teaching literally primitive people how to weld Aluminium (even spelled incorrectly by N.Americans, just as a starter). I quickly learned some key things:

As a general rule, nothing beats a demonstration.
Teaching those people about the dangers of oxy-acetalyne, I blew some up, first thing.

1. Humans respond best by interest first.
2. Accessability second.
3. Application value third.

1. I am interested in this wizz of a program. BUT it has many competitors (even if not as good).
The features layout was super interesting for its special extras. (I highlighted those in yellow!)


2. It wasn't as easy/straightforward to get to play with  as e.g.  WPress. ( It is disadvantaged by not being p-n-play via CPanel - a worthy big project to tackle as a priority.)
I've commented elsewhere on that exercise. Jeans install WITH pictures via WAMP now seems a better bet than the inclusive install, which kinda got lost on my W7 PC.  
HANDS ON is vital for the psych profile of your main target in the freebie world! WE don't read   
manuals……


3. What can it do for me? ( Women, money, prestige, solve a distinct need/problem)

You can own a world class Website just like Jeans
that does everything! Right NOW!
 
THAT should be a RTG download. THAT's what I want.  With everything including the kitchen sink pre-installed.
(Later I can learn how to do even more magic things with it - personalise it - and muck it up… :-) )

That is when the proposed book is applicable: the gritty details.
In minimum 2 distinct parts:
USERS (Me)
FIDDLERS (Developers)

---

BTW: The thought put into the proposed book alone is very impressive.
I'm sorry I don't have the time immediately to really input my results in depth as I go into this adventure, but I will when *I* get it all to work.

Luckily, with my trusty Dragon speech-2-text program, my verbose posts are easy! :-)  
 

himagain said

I used to design industrial training programs in the "Emerging World"

This is definitely a plus when it comes time to understand human reaction to "New Concepts". I've had a similar experience teaching in 'Emerging Worlds" from Africa to the Caribbean for the past 35 years and can relate to your  sense of priority.
 

 1. Humans respond best by interest first.
2. Accessability second.
3. Application value third.
 

"What can it do for me? ( Women, money, prestige, solve a distinct need/problem)" is without doubt the most important factor in the decision making of most people and the response to my students that got me the most attention was always: "If it can get you a better job, you will be more attractive to Women."  This was particularly important in Africa when it was still very popular to be able to have 4 wives.lol.
 

THAT should be a RTG download. THAT's what I want.  With everything including the kitchen sink pre-installed. (Later I can learn how to do even more magic things with it - personalise it - and muck it up… :-) )
 

This solution already exist, but unfortunately very few people are aware of it because of their initial desire to save when it comes to finding a host server and a great deal of skepticism about Web Hosting claims to be honest brokers .  The recommended Host by ocPortal:  eLief is one of the best there is for hosting an ocPortal website. Each plan includes a cPanel with a 1-Click ocPortal installer, full backups and the very important feature of Cloning your site at the click of a button. Another useful feature is free CloudFlare which protects and accelerates your website online. I've experienced eLief for the past 3 years and can vouch for its outstanding value when it comes to setting an ocPortal website that works.

HANDS on is vital for the psych profile of your main target in the freebie world! WE don't read  
manuals……
 

 
I can't agree more that "Hands on" is the way to go. It cannot be just a book, it has to be a combination of multimedia tools. But as a book it must start, and gain any sense of purpose when supported by a solid website for the "hands on" part.

Jean